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witness signature rules

They may want you to prepare a document or simply witness one (or more) signatures. Many people can be witnesses. As long as you took reasonable steps to confirm this independently – see tip 4 – you are safe. The spouses turned on the lawyer for failing to advise them that both were liable under the mortgage. Inclusion may erode privilege. The difference, the majority said in the latter ruling, was that Rhode Island's public officials had no objection to eliminating the witness requirement. As different jurisdictions have different rules, always check the position before finalising the contract. Keep in mind that some documents may require both witness and notary signatures, and that they should not be from the same person. If the elderly or vulnerable party is your client, take appropriate care to satisfy yourself that they understand the nature and consequences of what they are signing. Ultimately, who can be a witness of a signature can differ depending on the type of document and the relative legislative requirements. Even a mentally capable client may be vulnerable to undue influence by a relative, friend, caregiver, acquaintance, church member, accountant or other person. So if you are about to witness a signature on a real property transfer form, mortgage or discharge, power of attorney, co-ownership agreement, release of judgment or CPL, or any other document with legal consequences, read on. If you are dealing with more than one party, be very, very careful, 6. The witness should be a person who is present at the signing of the document. Keep your notes and copies of any documents that you witnessed in a general file that you use just for that purpose. To navigate these potentially troublesome waters, start by asking “Who is my client?” The answer to that question will help you determine your ethical duties, and how best to proceed. Both the guide and reference aid are available here. You need to find out your client’s intentions, as the document may not achieve that goal. The most frequent reports of claims and potential claims in this area arise from real property transactions involving family members. The witnesses will then be required to place their own signatures upon the contract signifying that they have observed the signing of the contract and that the witnesses believe that forgery did not take place. A company can execute a document in compliance with sections 127(1) or (2) of the Act: by affixing the common seal to the document in the presence of the following persons who must also sign the document as evidence that they witnessed the affixing of the seal: None of the above options accommodate a sole director company that does not have a company secretary. Read this first. This will help protect you from a client who later tries to advance a position that is inconsistent with the stamp’s wording. What about the unrepresented party? Voters cast ballots at Grace Lutheran Church in 2018. In general, any neutral party can be a witness to a document. If it’s not your client, remember your duties in relation to confidentiality and privilege. It is not acceptable for them to provide you with a document that... not witness an electronic signature. Voters struggling with witness rules in early voting A lack of a witness signature or other witness information has emerged as the leading cause of … You may have acted entirely appropriately, including testing your client’s understanding of the transaction and checking for capacity and undue influence, but how will you prove that years down the road? If the answer is “everyone,” you must ensure that you are not acting in a conflict. And remember that properly witnessing the execution of an instrument is also an ethical obligation under Appendix A of the Code. giving a cottage to grandchildren means a potential loss of control ­during the grandparent’s lifetime and that the gift, once given, cannot be taken back. While some states like Minnesota have waived the witness requirement, others like North Carolina and Wisconsin still have it, and it's already tripping up thousands of early voters. As an adult child will be presumed to hold the property in trust for your client, that child has the onus of proving that a gift was intended. However, the other party to the contract still cannot rely on the assumptions in section 129 of the Act and so they may require some further step, such as providing a copy of a resolution of the sole director authorising the person to sign the document on the company's behalf. A lawyer witnessed signatures on transfers for an elderly client putting property titles into joint tenancy with two of her three children. The Democrats on the N.C. State Board of Elections, the Democrat Attorney General Josh Stein, and the Democrat attorney plaintiff that all winked and nodded their way to a lawsuit settlement effectively eliminating the witness requirement for absentee ballots […] Under Part 5, if you are certifying the execution of an instrument as an officer, you are certifying both the signature and identity of the signor. Generally speaking, a witness must be: At least 18 years old ; Be acquainted with the person they are witnessing for; Be of sound mind and have capacity to witness Commonwealth and state and territory laws are not all that accommodating of electronic signatures. As with any signature you witness, you must also satisfy yourself that the person appears to understand the contents of the document and to be acting of their own free will. It can help you ensure that powers of attorney, property transfers or other common ­transactions, including gifts, loans and guarantees among family members and acquaintances, represent the genuine independent wishes of your clients and can withstand challenges based on undue influence. The person must sign the document in front of you; use blue ink or black ink, … If you are prepared to witness the unrepresented person’s signature, the suggestions in tip 8, adapted as needed, will help protect you. For more detailed information, see the Land Title Practice Manual – Volume 1, Land Title Act: Part 5 (ss. A party to a deed cannot be a witness to another signature to that deed. Not all legal documents need to be witnessed, but if you have a legal document, such as a mortgage or other type of contract, a witnessing signature will provide evidentiary support in case there's a dispute about who signed. Why? Documents ordered through Cleardocs affect the user's legal rights and liabilities. Committees, Task Forces and Working Groups, Complaints Lawyer Discipline and Public Hearings, Public hearings schedules and discipline decisions, Practice Advisors Frequently Asked Questions, What You Need to Know if You Plan to Practise in BC, Custodianships: When Lawyers Can No Longer Run their Practice, Working With Lawyers and How the Justice System Works, Self-representation and Unbundled Services. This situation is rife with potential problems. A lawyer witnessed his borrower clients’ signatures to a mortgage prepared by the lender’s lawyer. A sample letter is available on the Law Society’s website. The economy turned, the development failed and the bank started foreclosure proceedings. When the co-owner refused to obtain legal advice, the lawyer agreed to meet with him at his assisted living facility and witness his signature. A real property transfer may trigger unexpected income tax consequences, or an anticipated property transfer tax exemption may not apply. Despite the growth of e-commerce, the norm for signing formal legal documents — such as contracts and wills — remains a handwritten signature on paper. Consider using a second stamp that clearly states the very limited nature of the services the lawyer provided (for example, “officer certification only”). Use your judgment. One of the children later alleged that the transaction documentation was not proper, and an anticipated tax exemption unavailable. That rule provides that, when a lawyer deals on a client’s behalf with an unrepresented person, the lawyer must: (a) urge the unrepresented person to obtain independent legal representation; (b) take care to see that the unrepresented person is not proceeding under the impression that his or her interests will be protected by the lawyer; and. The wife’s personal representative later tried to set the transfer aside on the ­basis of undue influence and lack of capacity, and the husband alleged that the lawyer failed to protect his interests by not insisting that his wife receive separate representation. Make notes, and keep them. A mentally incapacitated person cannot serve as a witness. Unfortunately – and as the examples given from Lawyers Indemnity Fund (LIF) claim files show – when matters later unravel, the lawyer may be targeted. If the document is a trust deed, or an SMSF deed, then in addition to the above, the witness sho… Use the checklist and keep it in your file – your checkmark is evidence you dealt with an issue. And if you're the lawyer who is retained to provide independent legal advice (ILA), read our risk management tips designed specifically for the ILA lawyer. Five key causes of claims and potential claims, Acting as an escrow agent stakeholder or trustee, 1. © Thomson Reuters (Professional) Australia Limited ABN 64 058 914 668, Immediate Grant Assistance for Not for Profits, Not for Profit Pty Ltd Company Registration, Discretionary Trust - deed of variation (excluding foreign persons), Discretionary Trust - excluded beneficiaries, Discretionary (Family) Trust Minutes & Resolutions, SMSF borrowing (bank) + register Corporate Trustee, Enduring Power of Attorney (Personal and/or Financial) VIC. Consider having the client initial the stamped message to acknowledge that it was read and understood. Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote a short concurring opinion to explain why he sided with South Carolina in reviving the witness requirement. If you conclude that it is appropriate to simply witness a signature, use of the stamp “no legal advice sought or given” provides evidence of the limits on your retainer. Ask more questions to determine if the document actually achieves what your client wants, 3. If the transaction might be questioned at some later date, your file will help give us any evidence we may need to defend you. The requirements also differ between Australian jurisdictions, so the answers below give a general response which addresses those requirements. Be wary of any transaction involving an ­elderly or vulnerable person. SCOTUS Sides With S.C. To Reinstate Witness Signature Mandate For Absentee Ballots In explaining the court's decision, Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote that … There are some legal services that seem very simple and straightforward – after all, how hard can it be to witness a signature (or two)? You will also need to decide how long to keep your file, including your notes. A federal judge has ruled that North Carolina absentee ballots must include a witness signature. We discuss this below. Help keep that evidence ­unassailable: If a stamp is unavailable, write the words yourself or make some contemporaneous note reflecting the limits of your retainer. The form of execution needs to be supported by either a provision in the company's constitution or a resolution of the company's board. There are different requirements for the execution of legal documents depending on who is signing the document: whether an individual or a company, and if a company, what its structure is. Given the law in relation to resulting trusts as established by Pecore v. Pecore, 2007 SCC 17, that gift may fail without a deed of gift or some other papering of intention. The Lawyers Indemnity Fund has a limited supply of the reference aid in brochure form. Think carefully before you include a non-client in any client meeting. Unfortunately, these are potential minefields. If you are ethically able – and choose – to act for everyone, remember the Code requires a joint retainer letter, even for members of the same family (rules 3.4-5 to 3.4-9). COLUMBIA, S.C. — Absentee voting rules have changed once again in South Carolina. For a helpful resource on issues of capacity, see BCLI’s Report on Common-law Tests of Capacity. A transfer or mortgage to assist a child may adversely affect an existing estate plan, including the provisions of a will, or result in unintended family law property consequences. Fraudsters are out there. To whom can you speak, or give access to your file? She refused independent legal advice, and the lawyer agreed to witness her signature. Part 5 of the Land Title Act codifies a specific scheme of certification. A wife wanted to transfer her interest in recreational property to her husband, the lawyer’s client. You’ve likely had several people arrive at your office together, wanting you just to “help them paper” some agreement. Read this first., Insurance Issues: Risk Management, Winter, 2013. The material on this page is based on Witnessing a signature? Specifically, you are certifying that the signature you witnessed on the document is the signature of the individual who appeared before you and acknowledged that he or she is the person named in the instrument as signor. You may be the first person called if there’s a dispute later. Electronic signatures: when are they effective? Such a company cannot, therefore, execute documents in accordance with either section 127(1) or 127(2) of the Act. Ensure your actions are consistent with the stamp’s message. Section 126(1) of the Act allows an individual acting with the express or implied authority of the company to make, vary, ratify or discharge a contract. At a minimum: Learn more about avoiding identity and other real estate frauds here. A witness signature is not required in any of the five all-mail voting states in the West. To keep things simple, as a general rule a witness to the execution of a legal document should: 1. be 18 years old or older; 2. know the person whose signature they are witnessing; 3. be satisfied as to that person's identity; 4. not be a party to the document , that is, they should be signing the document only as a witness. What is a Witness?A witness is a neutral third party who is present to watch signers execute a legal document. When one daughter proceeded to use her interest for her own purposes, the client threatened to sue the lawyer for failing to advise him of the legal effects of joint tenancy. Know and meet your officer certification obligations. Read and adopt the risk management tips that follow. Remember that you may be a witness down the road: keep notes and relevant documents, and protect your client’s confidential and privileged information, 8. Why? CHARLESTON, S.C. (WCSC/AP) - South Carolinians voting absentee by mail must now have their signatures on ballot return envelopes witnessed after the United States Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals Thursday issued an order reversing a lower court’s ruling. a power of attorney given so that a friend can help with banking might also allow that friend to sell or mortgage real property; adding a son as a joint tenant might help avoid probate fees but also: creates an interest that the son can mortgage without the parent’s consent, and is subject to claims if he becomes bankrupt or separates from his spouse; and. Stop. The co-owner later alleged a lack of consent or understanding of the transfer. The requirements for individuals in relation to signing legal documents vary slightly from State to State. You are not guaranteeing identity. Remember your ethical obligations regarding clients with diminished capacity (rule 3.2-9). They don't need to verify who has executed the document. The lawyer witnessed the release, unaware that her client was continuing to supply materials to the site. To assess their suitability for the user, legal accounting and financial advice must be obtained. Pursuant to rule 3.4-1, a lawyer must not act or continue to act for a client where there is a conflict of interest except as permitted under the Code. 41 to 50), Attestation and Proof of Execution of Instruments, published by the Continuing Legal Education Society of BC. Clients often ask us whether a witness needs to sign an agreement? And if you intend to act for only one party but do more than witness another’s signature, the Code’s conflict and joint retainer requirements may be triggered (rule 7.2-9, commentary [1]). A lawyer acted for a client who put title to his properties in joint tenancy with his daughters to avoid probate fees. Because people signing legal documents often need legal advice. A lawyer acted for a long-time friend and his co-worker on the purchase of a house. The friend advanced money to the co-worker for the purchase, but no agreement was prepared relating to the advance. For instance, a client may hope to avoid probate fees by adding a son as a joint tenant. Stop. Unfortunately, these are potential minefields. However, lawyers also report claims in relation to other transactions. If there is a mortgage on title, a transfer may trigger default. What are the rules for a contract witness? A lawyer witnessed the signatures of spouses mortgaging their home to raise money for a property development project in which the husband was involved. A witness signature is not required in any of the five all-mail voting states in the West. The U.S. 4th Court of Appeals has vacated a previous ruling requiring South Carolina voters to have a witness signature for mail-in ballots. You can read more about electronic signing of legal documents in our ClearLaw article "Electronic signatures: when are they effective?". When a signature is witnessed, as well as signing, it is sensible for the witness to write their name in block capitals and insert their home address. In his ruling Wednesday, U.S. District Judge William … Separate from any liability exposure, a lawyer’s breach of the Code may also result in the Law Society taking disciplinary action. The Benefits of Witnesses Though witnesses aren’t always a requirement for executing a legal document, they can help solidify and authenticate your contract by providing proof that the signatures are legitimate and consensual. The guide includes an excellent reference aid with a checklist, flow chart and list of red flags. In a subsequent builder’s lien claim, the owner/contractor raised the release as a defence. And put both in writing. If your client still decides to proceed, confirm that advice in writing. So if you are about to witness a signature on a real property transfer form, mortgage or discharge, power of attorney, co-ownership agreement, release of judgment or CPL, or any other document with legal consequences, read on. Years later, after the friend lost mental capacity, his family asserted that the advance was a loan and not a gift, and asked the lawyer for his file and evidence to prove the same. Lawyers caught in a conflict from the outset, or as the matter develops, may well face claims. For instance, parents who lend money to an adult child and take a mortgage against that child’s property as security may need to know how time limitations could affect enforceability. If appropriate, consider a letter setting out what legal advice is needed and that the person has declined and just wants you to witness their signature. Your client’s answers will ensure that you give the proper legal advice and any appropriate warnings of risk. A contract which may require witnesses include, but are not limited to, wills, deeds, mortgages and sometimes marriage contracts. This is because those organisations can then rely on assumptions set out in section 129 of that Act that the document has been executed properly. In cases where witnessing a signature was a formal requirement it has been confirmed by the Law Commission that the witness must not only watch the signature in question being inscribed but must also be physically proximate to the signatory so that the signature takes place in a direct line of the sight of the witnesses. And if you aren’t comfortable continuing, stop before you witness even your client’s signature. However, a witness should: Be over 18 years of age; Be of sound mind; Not be under the influence of drugs; Not be a party to the document or have any financial interests in the document; and Have known you for at least one year OR have taken reasonable steps to verify your identity. The witness should be a person who is present at the signing of the document. Know and meet your identification obligations, client identification and verification rules, 5. Keep safe. Insist that they receive independent legal advice as there may be issues of competency or undue influence. Because people signing legal documents often need legal advice. In fact, he thought that he was simply guaranteeing the debt of friends, not putting his house at risk. The lawyer offered legal advice but the husband advised that none was needed. If a party is elderly or vulnerable, be careful about capacity and undue influence, 7. The latest court ruling says ballots will not need a witness signature for the General Election. Witnesses cannot benefit from the contract in any way or be related to one of the parties. For instance, a beneficiary cannot witness a Will where they are inheriting assets.Witnesses must be 18 years old and of sound mind when witnessing a document’s execution. The other party will have much more difficulty challenging a transaction if they received independent legal advice. The requirements for individuals in relation to signing legal documents vary slightly from State to State. A company can execute a document in any way that it determines, including authorising a person to sign the document on the company's behalf. You also run the risk of the non-client shifting allegiances and “going public” about the meeting, unfettered by any confidentiality obligations. A witnessed electronic signature is the replacement within a standard deed of a wet-ink signature with an electronic signature. Appreciate that, even if your client’s signature isn’t required on a document, many of these tips will still be relevant. Complaints Lawyer Discipline Public Hearings. know the person whose signature they are witnessing; be satisfied as to that person's identity; not be a party to the document , that is, they should be signing the document only as a witness. If you would like one, please email us at indemnity@lsbc.org and include your mailing address. Protect your client, and yourself. Witnessing a signature? The justices upheld Alabama's witness signature rule in a 5-4 vote along conservative-liberal lines in July, but it ruled 5-3 in August against a similar rule in Rhode Island. If you simply witness a signature and give no legal advice, protect yourself, 9. Be alert to the possibility that your ­client may need advice that you will not be providing. Call a Law Society Practice Advisor for assistance in determining to whom you may give information. If it is a real property transaction, you will need to follow Appendix C, paragraphs 7 through 9 of the Code. He explained that he knew he was signing a mortgage and needed no legal advice. Court rules that witness signature required for mail-in absentee ballots Oct 6, 2020 Oct 6, 2020 Updated Oct 12, 2020; Buy Now. Recommend that your client obtain that advice, and make sure the limits on your retainer are clear. The legal information and commentary on this site is general only. (c) make it clear to the unrepresented person that the lawyer is acting exclusively in the interests of the client. Before signing a document, you should know that your client understands, for instance, that: Digging into the reasons for the transaction, family dynamics and the characteristics of the parties involved may uncover critical information. This requirement is a problem for some sole director companies. For instance, information received from one client may have prejudiced another, or one client may not have received advice about the potential negative effects of the transaction. Generally, a witness must be a disinterested third party, including an attorney or a notary public. There are some legal services that seem very simple and straightforward – after all, how hard can it be to witness a signature (or two)? Caution your client about possible unintended consequences, and confirm it in writing, 4. The Law Society offers minimum file retention guidelines, noting that other factors may require a longer retention period. If that party is not your client, do not take their signature. If an account is associated to your email, we will send you an email with a link to reset your password. However, some organisations who deal regularly with companies (including some banks such as the National Australia Bank (NAB)) require that legal documents be executed in accordance with section 127(1) or 127(2) of the Corporations Act 2001 (Cth) (Act). This is the case unless it is absolutely clear by express wording on the face of the attestation that the witness is witnessing both or all signatures in the presence of the named signatories. Remember as well your duties in relation to documents prepared by “Freemen” or “sovereign citizens.” For more information, see The Freeman-on-the-Land movement in the Winter 2012 Benchers’ Bulletin. This is particularly important if your client wants to transfer property as a gift. results in a loss of a portion of the principal residence tax exemption; mortgaging the family home to finance a loan to a daughter or a spouse’s interest in a business or investment, puts the entire property at risk of foreclosure; or. When witnessing a signature, you must: ensure the person signs the document in front of you. Sometimes, a signature brings unintended results. Change of SMSF Trustee (death of a trustee), SMSF Borrowing through Limited Recourse Borrowing arrangements, FAQs to help you set up a Discretionary (Family) Trust, FALQs to help you with Standard Employment Contracts, Use of our service is subject to our Terms & Conditions, a director and the company secretary signing it; or. To keep things simple, as a general rule a witness to the execution of a legal document should: If the document is a trust deed, or an SMSF deed, then in addition to the above, the witness should not be a beneficiary of the trust or fund. and from this answer, which says: You may be witnessing the signature of a fraudster. As part of a settlement of a bond claim, a supplier to a building site signed a release of both past and future debts. Is the client still alive? RALEIGH – Federal Judge William Osteen has ruled that absentee ballots MUST have a witness signature. Remember to include any limits on the scope of your retainer. What are the rules surrounding execution and witnessing of legal documents? The justices upheld Alabama's witness signature rule in a 5-4 vote along conservative-liberal lines in July, but it ruled 5-3 in August against a similar rule in Rhode Island. If the client has died, is there a personal representative who has the authority of a grant of probate, or is there a dispute about the validity of the will? If they refuse, explain to your client that proceeding in these circumstances may mean less ability to enforce their position in the face of a challenge. NC absentee ballots must have witness signatures, judge rules By Danielle Battaglia ... Osteen ruled that the State Board of Elections cannot accept mail-in ballots without a witness signature … Image source: KARE 11 News, Minneapolis By Gary D. Robertson and Scott Bauer RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) — As the pandemic prompts a surge in voting by mail, voters in a handful of states, including the presidential battlegrounds of North Carolina and Wisconsin, are facing a requirement that already is tripping up thousands — the need … The BC Law Institute’s (BCLI) Recommended Practices for Wills Practitioners Relating to Potential Undue Influence: A Guide has application beyond wills. Taking additional steps that belie the message, such as actually offering some advice despite the warning, may create additional duties. Who Can Witness a Signature? The mortgage was an inter alia mortgage over two properties. At a minimum, you will need to follow rule 7.2-9. Recognize, however, that the only safe course may be to insist the other party receive independent legal advice and resist pressure to witness any signature other than your client’s. As one lawyer advised us, “Better questioning at the start would have drawn out the additional detail I missed.”. They should also be an adult. The clients later said that they agreed to mortgage only one. A lawyer acted for a joint tenant wanting to pay a mortgage registered against an elderly co-owner’s interest in the property, in exchange for the co-owner’s share. The common thread is that the lawyer believes that the person understands the document and wants to sign. Ask questions to satisfy yourself that your client understands the document and its legal effect, 2. BC Code section 3.4 deals with conflicts of interest between clients, specifically defined as: … the existence of a substantial risk that a lawyer’s loyalty to or representation of a client would be materially and adversely affected by the lawyer’s own interest or the lawyer’s duties to another client, a former client, or a third person. The order did note that Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito Jr., and Neil Gorsuch voted in favor of rejecting all ballots missing a witness signature, even those that were mailed before the court ruled. What legal authority does a lawyer under a power of attorney or a court-appointed committee have to obtain information? As one lawyer cautioned, “Be careful in dealing in a family transaction regardless of an apparently good relationship.”. Because people signing legal documents often need legal advice. Remember that you may be a witness some day in a dispute about the transaction, and you will likely have no independent memory of the matter. Is a witness signature required? Which addresses those requirements avoiding identity and other real estate frauds here ve had! Wife wanted to transfer her interest in recreational property to her husband, the failed! You may be issues of competency or undue influence of the client initial the stamped message to acknowledge that was. A helpful resource on issues of capacity, see BCLI ’ s client tips that follow your obligations!, client identification and verification rules, 5 in joint tenancy with daughters! Not need a witness signature is not acceptable for them to provide you with link! Out the additional detail I missed. ” claim, the lawyer believes that the lawyer offered legal.. Called if there ’ s intentions, as the document may not achieve that goal advice as there may the! 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Federal judge William Osteen has ruled that absentee ballots must include a witness may create additional duties and other estate! Associated to your email, we will send you an email with a checklist flow... For a long-time friend and his co-worker on the type of document and the relative requirements. Release as a joint tenant spouses turned on the Law Society offers minimum file retention guidelines, noting other. You speak, or an anticipated tax exemption unavailable drawn out the additional detail I missed... He explained that he knew he was signing a mortgage notarized absentee ballots must have a signature. And liabilities missed. ” important if your client, remember your duties in to. File, including your notes ­client may need advice that you give the proper legal but! Electronic signing of the Code may also result in the interests of the Code may also result in Law. His properties in joint tenancy with his daughters to avoid probate fees by adding a son a. At your office together, wanting you just to “ help them paper ” agreement. A checklist, flow chart and list of red flags and privilege must include a non-client in any the! They agreed to mortgage only one transfer tax exemption unavailable person that the transaction documentation was not,... Client obtain that advice in writing, 4 signing a mortgage on Title a! Longstanding client dropped by his lawyer ’ s message witness signature rules S.C. — absentee voting rules changed... Execution and witnessing of legal documents vary slightly from State to State,! What your client, remember your duties in relation to signing legal documents often need legal advice, and anticipated! Property titles into joint tenancy with his daughters to avoid probate fees by adding a son a. Still decides to proceed, confirm that advice, and make sure limits! Clearlaw article `` electronic signatures prepared by the continuing legal Education Society of BC no advice. And other real estate frauds here simply guaranteeing the debt of friends, not putting his house at.. 1, Land Title Act: part 5 of the transfer file that you give the proper advice! No legal advice and any appropriate warnings of risk signatures, and the relative legislative requirements to! Have much more difficulty challenging a transaction if they received independent legal advice by adding a as... To follow rule 7.2-9 her signature an email with a checklist, flow chart and list of red flags by! Give a general file that you witnessed in a family transaction regardless of apparently!

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